We want to move from care to health and from hospital to home. In real dialogue with clients, patients and citizens. In this podcast Maarten Ploeg and Pim Ketelaar, both program directors at VitaValley, talk to freethinkers. In this case with change expert Hans Vermaak. In 2015 he published the award-winning book 'Experiencing Pleasure in Tough Issues'. That's what he calls it, transitions are tough. We all steer, but no one decides. So what can you actually do?